WvW Skill/Class coordination

Discussion in 'Guild Wars 2' started by Selenus, Sep 22, 2012.

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    Selenus Veteran BOON

    So, from our experience so far, and the massive zergs last night, I've come to observe a few things we could try working on.

    Bear in mind, these suggestions/tactics are situational and will not always work. But they definitely will give an edge to people using them when used at the right times.

    For example, for mass rezzing, two thieves and two guardians going to the aoe spot with a bunch of rezzers, a thief does shadow refuge and a guardian uses shield 5, and then rotate and the other guardian uses shield 5 when the other one goes down. The dome lasts 4 seconds and it reflects projectiles, giving the rezzers a reprieve/time to rezz the fallen.

    Elementalists should be in groups of 5 and coordinating together, especially at battlements. While an individual elementalist or 2 doing a meteor shower at a spot can cause chaos in the enemy ranks, 5 elementalists working in synch can be -absolutely- devastating, timing 5 lava fonts and 5 meteor showers at the same time in the same spot. The reason for them to be in the same group is that the elementalist leading the group can put a crosshair on the target/area you're meant to be focusing your aoe on.

    Feel free to discuss these things, and add information of your own. It's 3 am and I'm tired and hungry, I can't think of anything else right now :p
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    spell Community Member

    For fast rezzing i recommend Engi "Toss Elixir R" 20% hp per second and if you throw just before you die on spot where you are going to die you can even ress yourself.

    For Elementalist I would recommend someone trying out Heaing Elementalist. Its actually quite amazing in sPvP but not sure how it would work in massive battles environment. In sPvP you can throw heals that heal around 1500 per pulse (2 pulses) and Heaeing Rain which gives regeneration that heals for 350 per second and last really really long and every apply of Regen gives you condi removal as well.
    There are as well other healing possibilities for other classes like Warriors shout build (3 shouts on low cd and each heal can heal for 1500 without Healing Power).

    For Thiefs I would recommend trying out Venom Builds (Sharing venoms that give your allies in close range "on next attack" abilities that for example can apply Poison and Weakneses, Immobilize, Vulnerability or even Turn into Stone). Still as I said i dont know if it would affect only 5 people or whole group that stands in 400 radius range (which would be kinda OP).

    For Guardians I am not sure how it works exactly yet since I didnt play Guardian at all but wouldnt 3x Spirit Weapon Build be kinda good since Spirit Weapons deal quite nice damage and its almost impossible to kill those? Just throwing idea since I dont have a clue how those skills work but seen people running that build and seems like for WvWvW potentially could have multiple uses.

    Before engagements its nice to use combo field powers as well. If you do this properly you can time Ranger Torch skill nr 5 and Thief Shortbow nr 2 spam to get 25stacks on might on everyone in range which leads to huge advantage. Not sure if it has limit when you are 5+ people (max amount of people affected). I am not sure how it works in large scale but you could as well try to make 15second stealth with it (Combo Field Smoke + Blast Finishers).
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    Earthwall - Raith Community Member

    I think all the AoE's have been limited to hit only 5 targets.

    Buffs wise, i think i can confirm it ... you notice easily for exmple using the Ranger Warhorn buff how many people get it
    or not. Healing wise i'm not sure since i saw alot more than 4 people being healed when using for example the Elite Spirit
    or Shadow Refugee on the Thief.

    I also tried out a more supporty build on the Thief yesterday, which when i use steal on an opponent, Blinds and Dazes him
    and gives allies (probably only 4 besides me), Swiftness Might and Fury and if you happen to jump onto a mesmer with your
    Steal ability, you even get another skill that gives you all buffs for 10 seconds :D
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    Xelendar Veteran BOON

    Imho i think everyone is jumping the gun and missing the big point in the first place.

    Coordination. We don't have it. Bare with me on this for a second.

    We're supposed to start from spawn as a group. What happen's? Either KC shouts on TS over and over again to people to bunch up at the freakin stairs, or we see a bunch of us "trained" and waiting for everybody to come by ourselves while some of us run away down the stairs without stopping.

    Even after taking out a point, no matter if its a tower or a supply camp, if we need to rush to another place, same thing: some of us bunch up at some point and some of us go running away without stopping.

    Heck, we even disengage PvP fights to chase dolyaks and sentries for the karma.

    Seriously, how many times have you heard KC saying on TS "we were too slow" in the past days?

    This week i did some WvW with two other guilds, and i have to say "what a difference". Two guilds moving as a whole always and in every situation, i never had to use any of my speed buff skills. Never. They take a supply camp, everyone balls up at the supply depot » warrior horn AoE speed buff » all run together recasting speed buffs when needed.
    Zerg on zerg: coordination. All moved together, either bombing either backing up. Rushing in, spiking left, spiking right... And i'm not talking just a few people, i'm saying around 40+ guys from two distinct guilds coordinating as a whole.

    How do we move? It's a freaking race! The first one to get there have to wait for the rest, and we even start fights while some of us are still trying to get into the place. We run as a zerg, not as a trained guild.

    See VII as an example. They have bigger numbers than us, have you ever seen them scattered around in any of our fights? Moving, hiding, zerging, always as a group.
    This is what we need.
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    Jame Community Member

    I've been playing mainly a healing ele for few days now.
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    Fizzee Veteran BOON


    Time for people to start being called to accounts for not following instructions quickly.
    Half the time, because chops is so tiny, people follow the biggest BOON group they see, so if a couple people run off, the whole guild starts running off.
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    Djai - Ine Veteran BOON

    With the commander icon, there's not really an excuse for losing track of KC honestly xD
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    Fizzee Veteran BOON

    Except he won't use it all the time. When we don't want pugs with us he won't be using it, so people need to get used to it not being there.
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    Djai - Ine Veteran BOON

    Gotcha. In that case it can be difficult at times to find KC but personally I ctrl-T him while moving just to make sure I don't lose track of him. That works too. You can then ctrl-T an enemy while fighting as it's intended and tag KC again when the fight is over.
    In any case I have to agree with Xelendar. What matters most is the reactivity and coordination and for that we need to focus on one thing: moving as a group. Even if you miss a fight it doesn't matter as long as you move with the group. I mean by that that I'd rather see everyone where they should be (myself included ofc :p) as priority #1, the rest will come naturally as a result.
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    Earthwall - Raith Community Member

    Xelendar while i do agree with like 90% or so of your posting (moving around as a group, reacting faster to KC's orders etc.),
    i feel like staying clumped up in a fight does more harm than what it helps, simply because most damage in this game comes in the form of AoE's.

    Fighting in GW2 WvWvW feels alot like those huge Endgame battles in rts games, where two players send their armies to fight each others.
    Usually, those fights are won by the player who's got the better positioning, wider arc since it'll alow him to have more units attack the enemies units.
    Especially, when there's units like Collosi or Tanks(to take SC2 for example), the enemy either avoids the big deathball and attacks somewhere else (if he's got a mobilie army) or trys to spread out his units so as few as possible take splash damage.

    Now as you said, we spread out too far from each other while moving around, that's pretty bad and i totally agree on that one.
    We should be able to solve this, by having those mobile classes like Guardians, Thiefs, Warriors and whatelse which have many charge,
    sprint or similiar skills hold back and stick to the slower classes like Ranger and Necros or whatnot.

    What's also very confusing in TS is the amount of people who constantly update the raid with informations. In paticular, stuff like "I'm under attack", or
    "Enemies behind us". General nonsense that distracts the raid and sometimes even prevents important stuff from being heard. Don't get me wrong,
    i don't think KC has to keep an eye on the whole map all by himself, but i don't think it is very helpfull when there's 2-4 guys start talking at the same time
    trying to let the raid know what's going on where. Yesterday for example, when RoF tried to ninja the Hills keep, i had to PM KC since nobody heard me on TS because people where talking about random stuff.

    We might be able to solve this, by appointing one or two scout parties in advance. These guys can scout out key location while the rest of the raid takes the
    objective. If these guys spot something, they report it in their party chat and when it's something important, the party leader relays the information to KC.

    => have scouts further away from raid than to allow the important information to be processed
    => gather intel about inc in party chat, even if it's only a few opponents
    => if the shit is about to hit the fan (further away) KC's told so by the sub raid leader ...

    By doing this we'd clear the TS off the useless chatter (in official raids) and we could focus on what's actually important.

    Traveling as a group and Communication isn't the only thing we can improve upon in my opinion. There's also those times when we're about to hit a Tower or Fort
    and we start looking for people to put up rams and other sieging equipment or when we need to leave defenders at a recently conquered objective. Yesterday when
    KC needed 2 groups to go for supply he got .. one? or even none ... don't recall correctly. Stuff like that doesn't just waste time (mostly important when we're under
    alot of pressure by the other 2 servers) but only annoys the raid leader (i assume). Not sure how we could solve this properly, cause if we'd appoint more groups like
    the scouts at the start of the raid, we'd end up standing around in base like KDS ~.~

    Anyways, just my 2 cents on the stuff brought up by Xelendar
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    HardKoar Community Member

    I never had problems following chops before the commander tag, ctrl + t does the job every time. Especially because he explains so well where the fuck we go that you could find him in a maze.
    If the command is ''LETS GO TO SUNNYHILL WEST'' and sunny hill is east, its up to you after almost 2 month of playng the friggin game to know where sunny hill is.
    Helping your leader not being forced to babysit grants him a mindset where all he needs to think about is how to fuck up the other team, atm he's being forced to spend more time looking where the fuck his guild went to rather then how to kill the opposition.

    The thing that pisses me off the most I gotta say is when we go to a supply camp, we kill everything , pick up supplies and then I see 20 plus players run off like headless chickens without a clue not realizing that their leader is still there at the camp probably typing to Aneu or someone else for tactical agreement on the next move.
    Then all the sudden KC gives the order which is in the opposite direction of where everyone followed that 1 random guy that started to run that way.

    Ctrl+T = HUGE RED mark on your leaders head, and everyone can do it , you do not need to be the leader of the party.
    Now , even commander tag that u can see on your minimap...
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    Melody Community Member

    Another problem, people use (more like wasting) there cooldowns / Initiative to catch up while we could be flanked all the time, thats just wrong, we should try to run around as a massive zerg, we need to coordinate speed buffs, instead of wasting cooldowns / Initiative.

    Noticed not much people like to Theorycraft.(Only want to play DPS Builds to maximize the Badges gained from a fight)
    Some people still run around in Magic Find Armor / Trinkets, using Magic Find Buff Food.

    Not like i give a shit about WvWvW anymore (since nobody listens anyway), but thats what i've noticed the past days.

    Never noticed somebody talking nonsense, its actually very helpful to know where shit is going on to plan what to do the next minutes, and its also very helpful to communicate, we need much more communication tbh, instead of people crying how weak ranger is compared to thief.
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    Katiechops Guild Master

    Actually it is gettign to the point now where we do start making our parties at spawn, ther is nothgin wrong wioth that as it can get done in 2 mins if we all follow a plan and not dick about.

    We did it in L2 all the time and it worked fine, I would look to have, A scout group, A Sentry group then main force.

    Scouts are ninjaing camps spying on movements etc, Sentries stay and guard important keeps/ towers or even supply camps and secure the base repairign, upgrading and building the seige equipment.

    Last wekk was too hectic fighting off a much bigger server and also a much bigger and organised allaince, which we need to remember we BEAT, as great as the VII, HoB, RG etc etc were we beat them to varying degrees every night, last night they didn't even show up, the nightbefore they never got past 1 keep and 1 tower the whole night and got wiped out and quit a hour early, the night before same 1 keep 1 tower while both nights we were bale to hold 2 keeps and 3 towers at times.

    So always have that in check organisation and tactics normally cost time, an if executed slowly can easily be countered, we lose very few if any "anarchy" fights like the supply camps, 3-ways inside Keeps etc 90% of the itme we win those because we are much more free and easy at times and let eachother do what we do best while guiding the raid to where the enemy are.

    But yeah need to get any big raid split as A and B and have a scout and sentry party, would make life alot easier, as for making bespoke groups and tactics we can start tryignto fine tune that but the party system is such a ball ache is beyond belief. raids like aion the raid leader could sort his groups in 20 secs, here it will take 10 mins and its changes all night so not an easy goal.

    As for the raids, yeah too many people are too slow,try and finish things off rather than stop and come back etc, also too many people talking about whatever come in therie head and making ideas on TS when we are doing something and spliting the raid and thats b9th the member ned ot remember who is leading and only follow thier instruction and players need to time these idea better mid combat or 5 secs after and intruction tends to result inthe raid spliting and a mess, followed by angry scottish voice.

    On the Angry Scottish voicce, REMEMBER - its communication to slap the raid in the face and make them listen and shack them back, while I sound harsh , raging and annoyed I am not, thats why 10 seconds later I amgiving out instruction as per normal and at the end of the night I am 99% time happy with the raids and happy with every member, if I am seriously unhappy at a member I would come find you in private later.

    When I do actually get upset and angruy its almost 99% of the thime due to me making a really bad call that I should have known not to do or just tired and being sloppy thts normally when u hear me muttering swear words to myself, speechless, sighing etc and agin nothgin for yoursleves to worry about next time I wipe them back or take what we were fighting from I have recovered.
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    vagabound Veteran BOON

    What will help a lot also is if ppl when they log off LEAVE THE GROUP your in as the others cant kick u in wvw and when kc asks for a whole group to go get supply camp half of the time there is 1 person offline. Ppl even if u dc and decide to go to bed or do something else pls relog and leave your party.
    This way the grp can ask in guild if some1 needs a spot and can have full group again.
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    Katiechops Guild Master

    I know but really ANet should have fixed this shit along time ago ><
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    Darkpride Veteran BOON

    Well i think the problem isnt even so technical (although i will make some suggestions regarding guardians after that) its more about a certain attitude towards WvW we have at the moment. We should decide (or point out) why we go out on a raidnight, (at least i guess) we want to have good fights and depending on which week/enemies we want to win pointwise. As of now people just go to WvW to get what they think they need most..fights,capture,karma,badges,loot..and that leads to some of the problem we are having.

    Why people dont group up properly ? Cause they wanna be first to jump in to tag more people for their precious badges.
    Why has Katie to search for Groups for a special task or defence for 5 minutes? Cause running getting supply or staying at a fort not under attack might lose you the next big zerg fight or capture which loses you precious badges and precious karma and precious gold.
    Why do people run after dolyaks and stand still in circle while a fort is under attack? Cause precious gold and karma.
    Why do we have a raidcall in some BL and 5-10 people are in EB? Cause jp or Karmatrain.
    Why does kc have to ask 4-5 times for a flameram,while for arrowcarts and ballistas people offer to build them? Cause with being the placer you can kick guildmembers out fo siegeweapons to farm more precious badges .

    As of now it more feels like we are a big Ts-based zerg that kc has to work hard to keep under control and direct where it can do the most dmg,and not a well working guild that trys to win that shit.Same goes for communication..some people obv. think whatever goes into their mind is worth for 40 people to listen at all times.

    So much for the behavior...technically we can do a lot better..although its just depending on the enemies...the most we just steamroll depending on positoning..so as of now most fights have been training,which might change this week pretty surely.

    As it goes for guardians,we can improve a lot of things,what worked pretty well the last days for me is engaging with the judges intervention (the range of 1600 is insane and lets you jump in the mid of a stand off) which draws instantly attention and cooldowns on you,if we combine this with 2-3 guardians which are marked by ranged aoe groups who aoe the warped guardian while he uses his baseheal,the enemy has basically 2 options,trying to kill the guardians that are the middle of a elementalist aoe storm,and survive for at least 5-10 secs,or they have to let people right into there formation with greatswords ,pulls and cleave who violate their range or can split there formation with shield 5 or sanctuary. (i swear in my head it doesnt sound so confusing -.-).

    Another thing i though of was relating to mesmer portals. 1st off on mesmer portals in general,the 1st night we used them we learned a few things. The mesmer has to know what he is doing,engaging via mesmer portal can surprise bigtime and destroy the opposition (or us),but if you ALWAYS go through it,you just get aoe-raped. So whats the solution? the enemy has to always guess,imagine 3 mesmer portals on different sides popping up,and the enemy before you. where do you aoe? where do you position? they could come out of every portal or from the front,you cant just aoe one side..and they could even come from every combination of sides. But this will take practise and discipline...2 things we lack the most.

    As for Guardians and mesmer,we could put up a memser portal..send 3 guardians through,let them circle sanctuary so the enemy just wastes all his aoe (cause man they are coming through the portal) the guardians give the go and the raid comes through into an enemy without cds up. This will also take good timing and discipline cause i can assure you some people will stand by the guardians just to get more badges !:)

    In general as Guardian you are pretty dependent of the whole discipline and structure of the group cause a bunch of chickens running around is hard to protect (i have the certain feeling that big blue bubbles scare people as they dodge out of them to take more hits to the face).
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    Warprophet Community Member

    sooo... much... text... coordination and communication can and will improve but not if we end up /gchat bickering everytime KC isnt around and as the raid grouping mechanic and gear preiewing mechanic are not available we shouldnt make assumptions about other people gear or commitment,

    Vote for KC to reroll the biggest NORN avatar possible and wear lumious pink armour :p
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    Katiechops Guild Master

    Great post and very good summary of where we are. As of today we are going to apply our seige calander, and on those times, everyone online will be joining our Borderland and sieging as per thier recruitment.

    We will also be changing a good few things tonight on how we seige which in many ways will slow us down initially but in the long run give better team work, more forfilling roles and make the raid easier to lead until they can add some raid leader features to the game which I am sure will come.

    Another issue we will be addressing is raid leading when i am not there, to many people just think they can fuck about and do as they please when I am not about let me be clear raid leading in GW2 WvW is by far the hardest raid leading I have ever encountered by miles and I have lead guilds for 10 years now and done well over 1000 raids and this is a ball ache as the game offers nothgin to make the raids easier to lead and infact the whole structure pushes you to random ness, zerging and chaos tbh so keepin things inline is very hard, but can be overcome with alot of self discipline.

    I very happy with the guild and the WvW raids regardless, the guild is very active, and overall theplayer can allplay thier toon very well and indepentantly, is we don't live and die by hard fast rules and tactics we can wing it and the members skill base can carry it at times which gets us out of hole that other guilds would simply wipe it and you can't train or have a routine for that thats just natural player skill awareness.

    We just need to slow dow for the week an take our time and get some raid structure / set up practice done and this isi a good match up for trying it out, two zerge server we will never beat at WvW due to off peak numbers.

    So check raid schedual and get used to Aion style raid attendence ie your online during a WvW raid your in the raid only exceptions peasents. see raid schedule here
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    Spud Community Member

    I think we have differing expectations across the guild, and while gear does make a difference, it is not as much as other games. I finish work 9-10 pm 4 days a week, have 1 char at 80 with full exotics, working on another (mesmer for pvp options), on a sunday afternoon we could barely scrape 2 groups with 50+ online.
    with the opportunity for having 12 hours map domination instead of 6 we could and should be second on the points score. As a HC PvP guild it has astonished me more than once at the numbers of PVE'ers, and also the numbers not on TS.

    I found myself feeling sorry for Jame, she was given the responsibility with no authority. She was repeatedly ignored and needs more support during the off hours when its not an official raid time.

    While it is clear we are hadicapped by lack of nightwatch, this is no surprise and the trouble is while we are best at fucking their shit up, if we are not careful we will be against servers that wont fight, no matter how much skill we have this is still a numbers game, we can and do often win massively outnumbered at the end of the day those that are organised in off peak hours will win in the end. That is a cold hard fact.

    Our biggest problem is getting the scrubs and randoms to work as a team, but as mentioned above karma farming is more important to most than server prestiege. Hopefully that mindset will change over time.
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    Ironhide Veteran BOON

    quoted for truth.

    Jame does what very few other people (outside of the officers) will do and steps up (voluntarily) and attempts to lead wvw raids (and does a very good job of it, imo), and gets what for it? as Spud said, repeatedly ignored by a good proportion of the others present.

    This shouldn't be happening, she might not be an officer, but people shouldn't be completely ignoring her if shes leading a raid. This is happening too much of the time right now.

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