The new build...

Discussion in 'Guild Wars 2' started by Ebel, Jan 24, 2013.

  1. Offline

    Ebel Veteran BOON;TIAA2CnA
    From the other post

    Well I know for sure I won't run that build, I don't know about others but im still going for shoutbuild this is what I am using right now;TIAA2CnA
    I have been using rampage for 2 days now and I can say its very usefull in bottlenecks 50k health 4k armor the 1000 meter dash is easy to get behind the zerg or inside it, you guys should try it for sure.

    Well back on topic to the other build signet build? endure pain/stabilty/dolyak signet I know they want to give us stabilty but 1 should be enough.
    Well I tried to tweak the build the best I came up was;TIAA2CnA
    bull's charge 900 range charge is always nice, Stomp earthquake skill and is a blast finisher last one is either use endure pain trait so you got stabilty on your skillbar or use stabilty trait so you got endure pain on your skillbar
    If you asked me for advise, i'd say for support go shout build for DPS go the tweaked build.

    So what do the other warriors think about the new build wich was posted?
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    Pauleh Veteran BOON

    I think the build that was suggested wasn't very good either, it picks up traits that help with stability while ignoring any that give condition removal, i'd go as far to say it focuses a little to much on the stability.

    Signet of the Dolyak is pretty bad, swap that for Signet of Stamina for the 50% more endurance regen for more dodging and the use to removal all conditions from yourself, which is very powerful.

    Endure pain and Defy pain are a bit OTT maybe drop Endure from the Utilities to pick up For Great Justice, especially in a shout build. It also helps out massively when we stop and stack might, i think on the practice night we had atleast 4 warriors running FGS which was probably significant in helping people get to 25 stacks, plus it lasts 32.5 seconds from shout warriors.

    Merciless Hammer is not necessary, the damage part is rubbish and the cooldown reduction won't make any difference cause the ball should have smashed through our enemies before the skills are back of cooldown (plus the fact that guide suggests we use the cooldowns and then swap to double Axe making it even more redundant), Last stand would free up another utility skill for yet another shout, the shout build is used by most warriors i don't think they will want to drop it so quickly, espcially after spending lots of gold on the soldier runes.

    The Discipline tree is mainly garbage, crit damage passives look good but at the cost of taking shite traits which could be spent else where. The 15 point Fast Hands is nice but too much of an investment. I used to like the traits that give you bonuses for having full adrenaline, but with hammer and axe burst skills being so powerful you will always want to be using them every cooldown.

    I was thinking of tweaking my spec, but i would keep the core build the same and just swap to Hammer or Greatsword while using Berserker trinkets, i think it has the same desired effect without the need for respec.
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    Ebel Veteran BOON

    Great post Pauleh, yeah Merciless hammer is not necessary mabye we should pick up spiked armor instead wich is 33% of the time retaleration up 15 secs cd last 5 secs or whatever you guys think you need.
    The discipline tree is probaly the worst tree of the warrior I never had a build with that trait tree because its more effictive to put these somewhere else.
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    Kisiek Community Member

    Waht The Fak Is This Shit?!

    I would comment on whats wrong with this build. But.... theres almost everything wrong with it... so ill comment on good things :)

    Berserkers trinkets are good and Leg Specialist is nice (but there are better traits than that one).

    Sorry guys but i wont be a 20k HP warrior with ~70% crit chance thats initiating the fight with burst skill with no adrenaline...
    yea... can someone explain me how to use the burst skill with no adrenaline?

    I spent loads of time to think about a warrior build strictly for ALL CALL and loads of gold to actually test every single build i came up with. And i wont let someone who clearly has no idea about a warrior to tell me how should i build my class.
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    Pauleh Veteran BOON

    Think your taking it a bit too personal dude.

    Rather than criticize too much, be more constructive, this is why that thread is locked.
  6. Offline

    Kisiek Community Member

    Yea probably you are right:(
    And i think i misread the post and thought that we are expected to do this build.:oops:
    Ok im done commenting.
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    Tumbleweed Classic Guild Member

    I'll start by reiterating that none of the builds in that thread are mandatory, so there's no need to go nuts over them, nobody will be effectively forcing you to use them or anything like that (not that it's possible to anyway in this game). So try to be less aggressive, the reason why I asked people to create threads such as this one is to have a constructive discussion around it and tweak it further or find viable variations to suit everyone's taste. Oh yeah, just cause you've never seen someone play a warrior, doesn't mean they never did.

    The build is created for a specific role, as stated in the post front-line dps. The idea behind it is to guarantee you as much resilience and cc-immunity through stability as possible, while allowing you to focus on maximizing the use of your weapon and burst skills, as you have enough of them with a low enough cooldown to keep your fingers busy all the time. I also said there that the utils are not set in stone, you can swap them in/out as you like, the important thing is to always have at least one source of stability in your bar, you can't just rely on the guardians to provide it all the time and it's probably the most important boon for you to have in the first 5 seconds of each fight. The reason why we put 2 in there is that each one gives you 8s stability for ~40s cooldown and as you probably noticed the past 2 days, this style of fighting involves hitting the enemy with consecutive run-throughs, so yeah you will have one for the first run, but then the cooldown on it will mean you haven't got one for the 2nd run, with 2 you can alternate.
    It's entirely up to you guys to see if you are always fine with having just one, testing stuff like that is encouraged. Keep in mind that right now we're mostly fighting uncoordinated zerglings and no tough guild that runs a similar setup so we have a lot less incoming cc to deal with now than we may need to in tougher fights.

    Ebel, in your tweaked build you are using the Balanced State trait and utility at the same time - those don't work together because of overlapping cooldowns - e.g. if you have the utility on cooldown, the trait won't do anything, so try avoiding that combination.
    The falling damage trait is just a gimmick that fits fights where you jump off a wall directly onto enemies and not much else, I wouldn't expect anyone to put that in a WvW build for group fighting. The II trait in Strengh is waaaaay stronger and all-round useful.
    Unless you die (which doesn't happen very often) or disconnect/relog after every fight, you will be able to save at least one bar after the fight ends for that very purpose. Just because the skill is stronger with full adrenaline doesn't mean it's not a very strong initiator even with minimum adrenaline required.

    There are a lot of valid concerns, opinions and ideas here and there are also a lot of strong synergies in the build that you are missing. I'd like to discuss them all in TS, maybe take a few minutes tonight before/after the raid, we can all jump in a channel, kidnap Klecks and talk about all the stuff.
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    Ebel Veteran BOON

    Yes I know but I should had put it more clear either use endure pain trait so you got stabilty on your skillbar or use stabilty trait so you got endure pain on your skillbar.
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    Tumbleweed Classic Guild Member

    Yeah, that's the main idea. Reason why we chose stability on the skillbar and said endure pain would be better to swap-out by preference is that it allows you to use it when you need it to avoid any interruptions for your initiation..that initial hammer skill-chain is massively important. Also, the trait doesn't seem to activate on fear and it would absolutely suck to be feared for 5-10 seconds when the fight starts instead of delivering the payload (I know I hate it with all my heart when it happens to me on the necro).
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    Klecksi Veteran BOON

    Ok I gonna try to clear a few things up... I try to explain the ideas behind certain choices so you guys can check if you find better options to solve this task. As a note, we polished this build quite a lot in the context of our need and iterated over it for at least 5 times. It's not like this is the first thing we came up with.

    Edit: Haha, just read the whole thing. It got kind of long which should be just a prove that we take this serious. If you really want to talk about a build for this role please try to explain your thoughts a bit more detailed (like Pauleh).

    First of all the build was created for a front-line hammer warrior in a "ball zerg". It's supposed to dish out a good amount of damage combined with lots of control to lock down and eventually kill the enemy (so this build was never meant to be a support build ...). To ensure that, we quickly noticed that stability is the boon that makes the whole "ball zerg" idea rise or fall.

    • Leg specialist (Tactics): This trait has great synergy with the hammer and its burst skill. Use the hammer #3 to cripple/root your targets at up to 600 range. Directly follow this up with the hammer burst to aoe stun the area (also 600 range and same cooldown). Your target can't dodge or even move since it's rooted. This combo/synergy is awesome if you ask me!
    • Sure-footed, Merciless Hammer (Defense): 25% longer stability uptime from Balanced Stance (applied after boon duration), reduced hammer cooldowns and increased damage against disabled targets (lots of hammer warriors in the zerg so there should be lots of disabled targets).
    • Fast hands (Discipline): In my opinion, this is another really really awesome trait. If you don't have it you'd either stay almost the entire time on hammer or you wont use the hammer burst on cooldown. This trait brings so much flexiblity.
    • Signet Master (Discipline), Restorative Strength (Strength): Condition removal on heal and lower heal cooldown. The removed conditions are all those that would make the ball zerg fall apart so this quite nice. Combined with the elite signet and the dolyak signet for more stability this results in some nice synergy.
    • Defy Pain (Defense): The optional trait. In the end, we picked this trait line as the minor trait is nice compared to the other trait lines. Defy Pain itself was kind of the only real option we had here. Last Stand would be nice but it just doesn't work together with the Balanced Stance utility because of the shared cooldown. We picked the utility over the trait because it more than doubles the stability uptime (40 sec cooldown compared to 90). An alternative might be Empowered (Tactics) but the minor trait (as all minor traits in tactics) is almost useless.
    Utilites / Elite:
    • Balanced Stance: Not much to say here. This is even more important than the hammer.
    • Dolyak signet: more stability. Perma stability is not a bad thing. But even with the signet it's not enough, but better than nothing. Also the cooldown is reduced via traits. The skill is not as important as Balanced Stance though.
    • Endure Pain: completely flexible slot so not really something to discuss either =)
    • Signet of Rage (Elite): A great amount of fury. Swiftness and might are a bonus. Reduced cooldown from traits. I wouldn't go with the transform as I think the actual hammer ccs are stronger and you don't lose the ability to use your other skills. Maybe about personal preference. This slot is quite flexible as well but I'd say the signet just fits in perfectly.
    Ok I hope I didn't miss anything. Gonna answer your questions / suggestions below ;-)

    Hey Pauleh, thanks for you input. The focus on stability is wanted as it's the strongest boon around. So the idea was to get more or less as much stability as possible in the front-line.

    The whole "ball zerg" idea is built around guardians and warrior. All the other classes are more or less meant to support you guys. This of course includes condition control (just yell at your support if its not enough - guardians, eles, mesmers, necros). So while you have some condition removal from the heal signet, it's important to note that you have to put some thrust into your backline as it does into you. The ball zerg is a team build to get the most out of each raid member.

    "For greater Justice" was already suggested by Tumble as an alternative for Endure Pain. Especially the aoe fury is great. So please use it =) Last Stand was already explained. It's a nice trait if the cooldown wasn't shared. But 90 seconds on your only source of stability is simply too bad to match the actual ball zerg idea. If you want a second shout, switch out Dolyak Signet.
    The last two parts of your statement are kind of contradicting each other. You have to see the two traits in combination. Merciless Hammer reduces the hammer cooldowns and Fast Hands makes sure that you can actually swap fast enough to use the hammer skills on cooldown. That's why Fast Hands is that important. The idea here is that you use your hammer skills to initialize (the attack on a certain group of enemies), switch to axe to build up adrenaline (we think that's a lot faster than with a hammer) and switch back to the hammer. Repeat.
    Without Fast Hands, you would have two choices after the hammer burst: stay on hammer to use the burst on cooldown or switch to axe for faster adrenaline regeneration but increase the hammer burst cooldown because of the weapon swap cooldown.

    I hope I could answer everything =)

    Well a shout build is a support build and in "ball zerg" many classes are intended to support (guardian, ele, memser, necro, ...) but warrior isn't among them because of their superior melee weapon capabilites. Simply, there's no other class with that much aoe melee control so we really need warriors to dps and control in the front line.

    About your current build:
    • It's a shout build so kind of favors self condition removal and healing at the cost of less stability and lower dps.
    • Aoe fear ("Fear Me") is almost good for your opponent and doesn't work together with a ball zerg. Instead of locking people down, they get a second chance to escape. So please don't use it in ball zergs.
    • The elite is nice because of the stability but that's almost all. Even the hammer has better control (both knockback and knockdown are only single target and launch from stomp is as bad as fear). Also the elite makes you very vulnerable to conditions. So I'd stick to the elite signet which is not that situational.
    About the tweaked build:
    • I don't think it's that superior to the one Tumble posted. I'd be interested to know the reason behind those changes. I don't really see a reason for the changed traits or skills or what problem they are meant to solve. It looks kind of random or from a build with a completely different focus.
    • First of all you took out a lot of stability to insert a single target knockback and stomp - a launch skill (already discussed). It almost seems like you just don't want stability ^^. Even in your current build you picked Sure-footed to increase the stability uptime but this build would profit even more from it.
    • There's even less condition removal than in the previous build which dealt at least a bit with the most annoying ones (especially roots are a pain for melees). As Pauleh said the build is already kind of low on condition removal so I'd stick with condition removal on signet heal.
    • Not picking up Fast Hands kind of means giving up flexibility. Also this results in less dps and control as you can't use all the skills on cooldown.
    I hope I answered everything important =)

    I can ask the same thing :p. Maybe come up with some arguments / better ideas / an actually better suited build.
    • Initiate as in initiate the attack on a certain group of enemies. If you don't have adrenaline, build some up and "initiate" then. That happens preferably more than once throughout a fight as the skill has a 10 seconds cooldown.
    • With optimal gear (knight armor, knight weapons, jewels mix of berserker and ascended toughness/power/crit) you should end up at 19.5k hp, 3.1k - 3.2k Armor, 28% crit chance and 61% crit damage. If you feel too weak, add in knight jewels but remember that the guardians right next to you have to take the same amount of damage with less hp. No point if our guardians die because we failed to actually kill something.
    • Noone forces you to test a group build with the aim to improve our overall wvw performance.
    Btw if we'd have wanted to create a "hammer control warrior front-line support shout build" it might have looked like this:;TIAA2CnA
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    Kharjas Community Member

    Why not sword in the main hand? Maybe you lose a little dps but the mobility that you win with the leap is amazing. It is really good skill to engage if you have earthquake in cd and also amazing to recover the position. Besides, skill 3 will get beneficts from leg specialist also (eventhough is single target).

    I think that "we" warriors, in general, consider the shouts builds better, but it is just to try it and see result/performance. (FGJ and shake it off are some of the best skills for warrirors with a shout build)

    Consider also that jewels are going to be different in days with the introduction of ascended in the daily quests.
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    Tumbleweed Classic Guild Member

    We actually considered sword vs axe main-hand when we made the build and compared the benefits of each and synergy with the fighting style. Here's more or less the pros and cons and why we ended up choosing axe:
    • dps and control-wise sword is by design a single-target weapon, it doesn't really give you any aoe option, while axe gives you two strong aoes, one applying 4x vulnerability (4% more damage from all our guys to their affected guys) and another applying multi-target cripple, which combined with leg specialist results in another immobilize
    • movement-wise the sword is clearly better as it offers you a leap that you can use for initiation/catch-up should you somehow fall a bit behind. We then asked ourselves if you really need a 2nd initiation or to catch-up and the general idea (should apply to over 90% of cases) is that we normally wouldn't run into the enemy group/zerg more than once every 10 seconds (hammer burst cd) and even if you do fall a bit behind or have your hammer burst on cd/lacking adrenaline there is always dps needed slightly behind the frontline as there will always be some survivors after the initial blow and even if there aren't, downed enemies need to be dpsed all the way down anyway.
    • the last point, where the axe really outshines the sword, is the finishers and their effects in the fight. Sword gives you a Leap finisher, which combined with the usual abundant mid-fight fields will generate Retaliation (only for you, Light), single-target Blindness (to the enemy your leap will hit, Dark). The axe however grants you 2 finishers, one of which is Whirl, generating Cleansing Bolts (AoE condition removal, Light) and Leeching Bolts (strong lifesteal for you, Dark), while the other is a Physical projectile - same effects as whirl, only single-target.
    To sum it up, the only benefit we saw in the sword over the axe was the leap as an alternative initiator and movement skill, on all other criteria it came short for this particular style.

    I also consider shouts are very strong, particularly when you have small-scale in mind. It would be ridiculous to say otherwise. As a matter of fact we run small-scale WvW with a warrior in the group quite often and I believe he uses shouts for it, they're really strong there. The reason why we moved away from them is that we didn't look at each profession individually and tried to make some sort of "cookie-cutter" build for that profession alone - we looked at the whole raid as a big picture and identified the synergies between professions. We sort of imagined a big blank table where we had to put all the ingredients to get all we would need for the guild raid; then we looked at all the professions and what parts of what we needed to put on that table they can really shine at providing. Warrior is by design one of the strongest melee dps classes and it comes with very powerful aoe control embedded with the hammer, so we agreed that would be the best-suited role (after having identified the sources of all necessary boons).

    Most of your comments about the build are valid if you look at yourself, the warrior, as one guy, we won't be arguing that. If you look at the build we made there, at first-glance, if you only consider what you "the one warrior guy" do, it doesn't sound like you're much of a team-player without shouts, aoe heals, banners or something like that. I think it's not even a strong build to play by yourself with random friendly zergs. But the whole point of a strong team is having strong players for each of the positions on the field.
    I think a football analogy depicts this image very well: you have your goalie, your defense, your mid-line and your strikers. Each of them have a very specific part to play and most of them suck horribly at each others roles. In this picture you would be the strikers: you're the guys that will deliver the killing blow, dazing the opposing team's defense (well, stunning really :D) scoring the goals, but not expected to be great passers or defenders. And then we have your guardians by your side as assist players, necros, eles, thieves in the mid/back-line to support you guys with the fields and finishers to keep the ball rolling.

    We actually did consider that (between Klecks and I, we have 3 full-ascended-geared characters where there are available pieces so we also have a good idea of options/differences) - you will find a line about it in the gear post on the same thread where all the builds are. As Klecks already mentioned above, Pow, Toughness and Crit Dmg% is an extremely strong combination for you guys and there is also an ascended version of Berserker stats if you find that you have enough toughness by the time you'll have the currency needed to get the pieces. When in doubt, there's also All-Stat ascended pieces, which are great because they will grant you a greater total number of stats and all stats are useful in some way (some more than others ofc). Obviously the downside of all-stat pieces is that you get less of the stats you want more.
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    Ebel Veteran BOON

    I know you guys mean well, but the problem is the shouts heals saved me and others so many times from being downed and if your downed you will end up mostly dead and a dead boon is not so great, stabilty does not makes you immune to cc's and pulls and put that the warriors and guardians are frontline so we will take the first damages.
    To give you some numbers on the shout heals 2.3k per shout 6.9k total and extra healing with my rune of water 1.4k thats 8.3k of healing.
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    Tumbleweed Classic Guild Member

    The heals issue is a bit concerning, but are you relating that only to the new set-up where you run in most of the time with protection, maybe aegis as well?
    What's your current toughness and which heal are you using? Have you tried using the Endure Pain utility or trait? I know that the way we used to engage a zerg in the past left the front-liners very vulnerable (cause I was often in the frontline with the necro), but for the past couple of days it feels a hell of a lot safer in the mix, hardly ever lose more than 50% hp and for example yesterday I never died (except once running afk in a wall by myself, you get the idea). This is despite giving up the strongest necro heal (Consume Conditions, which was also the condition wipe skill) for a big-ass 10-second Light field healskill. Right now I am totally reliant on AoE/combo condition removal/transfer provided by the group and if anything it feels even better because it's constant removal, instead of on my heal's cd. Hell, a ranger tried playing melee for the first time yesterday (without the 6-second immunity skillcombo) and said they felt pretty safe up there with the melees, never died and rangers are well squishier than warriors.

    The whole reason why we put the healing signet and the cc-removal trait in the build is to counter the exact situation you're describing, where you might really need a heal+condition wipe after the first impact if you have some chill/cripples/immobilize on, before the light-field combos start to kick in. Also it would be very helpful to have some lifesteal food on (Mixed Berry Pie is pretty cheap if you're not into the top-tier version of it).
    Also, don't overestimate the damage thrown at the frontline vs what the backline takes, because more often than not, the element of surprise+your hammer leap and constant push forward gets you past most of the damage before it lands, which is left for the mid/back lines to traverse.

    Specifically about the pull issue: according to the wiki it's a bug that stability doesn't make you immune to it since a patch in October and even if it isn't a bug, there's a total number of 2 pull skills in the game, of which 1 (the mesmer focus skill) is only rarely used like that, because most mesmers "waste" the cooldown on it for the swiftness.

    If you're worried about dying too much in that build, how about this: put the exact build we suggested on for one night, assuming you have 3k+ toughness it should work survival-wise without tweaking any gears even if you don't have knight+zerker atm; get a feel for it and the way it works and if you end up dying a lot more or think it's not fun or you just don't like it, switch back to what makes you feel confortable and more survivable. Then you can give us some very accurate feedback about what's not really working so well and maybe we can find some improvement areas. Hell, I'll even give you the 6 silvers it costs to respec twice and the 2s repaircost/death if you don't like it and that's a problem.

    Bit of food for though for all of you:
    I understand that you don't want to be told how to play and we're not trying to do that here, but most of you are acting very defensive to your builds and it doesn't seem like any of you actually tried the full build on to see what it's like before picking on things you may not like or understand the usefulness/synergy of. We're not forcing anybody to use this or anything else as their build, but I would have expected a bit more open-mindedness and willingness to actually try things out, to get some feedback based on experimenting with the build in the raid as opposed to theoretical opinions based on past experiences with other builds. I would love to see some points made by someone that actually tried to play with it and experienced first-hand the issues that may arise, kind of how Xtranerf tried the guardian one out and found some things that are sometimes uncomfortable or that could be better combined with other things for more efficiency.
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    Pauleh Veteran BOON

    I'll bite the bullet as i've yet to buy Soldier runes so the willingness to drop a shout build is probably more likely for me.

    I did however tweak the build a bit.;9;49-TJ91;329A08-5;04-V0K;1CoF2CoF25Bp

    I'm too stubborn to just drop everything, and i've feel in love with the warhorn for incredible movement speed and for converting conditions into boons. So i'm stick with Sword + Warhorn in my offset plus i'm gonna use For Great Justice as i love providing buffs still. Not got fast hands but thats no worries as i'm gonna be smashing the shit out of them with the hammer.

    Unfortunately i won't be on tonight as i'm round my fiances (should be there now eeek) so you'll have to wait till tomorrow for my verdict, but i'm sure someone else will try it out tonight.

    Anyway i've taken a step back from shouts and all that milarky and these defensive cooldowns look really good and i can't wait to test them out in the field, but that'll have to wait till tomorrow cause i'm so gonna get whipped for being late :E
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    Undeadmonkey Veteran BOON

    Well you gave me alot to read ^_^
    In my opinion the build Tumble posted is pretty good you need to keep in mind your gonna get constant heals from behind you and you have 2 Endure pains so the chance of going down is low and the fact your gonna be tagging alot of ppl so even if you do you should rally pretty fast;TUAA2CnsAZAxeDA
    I personally would switch the heal signet for healing surge. mainly for the big heal and if you need adren you can pop it.
    There was something else but i forgot ^_^
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    Fozia Veteran BOON

    noone wants to listen to anyone anyway i like the things tumbleweed said no need to get mad at him
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    Tumbleweed Classic Guild Member

    Yer we also considered that heal but the build with it is weaker in terms of movement-impairing condition removal. Still a potentially good variation like you said for the bigger heal burst+adrenaline gain trade-off; if you try it out and you find that you don't get bogged down with chills/immobilizes/cripples lemme know and I'll add a line in the general thread about it.
    Note however that due to the difference in cooldown (almost double on Healing Surge in this build), the heal value over time will end up being roughly the same, so it's mostly a burst vs 2-stage heal and adrenaline boost vs movement-impairing wipe so these would be the aspects you'd need to look at when comparing these 2 heals in this build.
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    Undeadmonkey Veteran BOON

    Yea i was on thr idea if im at the front im gonna take a beating, so i think i wont get enough healing fast enough to stay alive when they focus me, also i can refil adren instant after i use earthshaker so i maximize dmg
    I will give it a whirl when i get back tomorrow eveing
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    Ebel Veteran BOON

    Ok I gave the build a try yesterday well except for the healing signet since I had trouble keeping up adreline its nice to have stabilty up more then 50% of the time but for the rest its not really worth it but I did like the 50% of stabilty up so I bascily came up with some easy changes and hardly healed myself last night.
    This is what I ended up with last night;TIAA2CnA
    When last stand is activated you can use balanced stance right away if needed giving you 24 secs of stabilty total, signet of stanima removing all conditions is really nice
    last one I was thinking about endure pain but gave berserk stance a try and now my adreline will hardly go down.

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