SWTOR PvP Facts (from DH)

Discussion in 'Game Discussion' started by Saul, May 5, 2011.

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    Saul Community Member

    It's not a skill though Maskerad, It's a shopping list. If you are actively counting CC Counters on individual targets, thats not skill, thats Spreadsheet arithmetic.

    The 3, 4, 5 seconds your brain is spending on calculating and tracking CC rotations and associated targets, could be better spent looking for flanking opportunities, or 3,4,5 seconds spent observing weaknesses, in formation, etc, or 3,4,5 extra seconds keeping tabs on your own squad and how they are holding up and what weaknesses, they are displaying that need reacting too, etc. and Ok aided by the fact we know who to CC and who to not bother CC'ng, thats not dumbing down imo, it's common sense and progression in a CC Centric MMO.

    In any combat situation the time spent on micro managing your shit, is time spent not observing the bigger picture, till the bigger picture fucks you in the ass. Apologies, but it gets the point across a little better :)
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    Maskerad Veteran BOON

    Okay, I still don't think you get it.

    Again, I will stress this a last time: I do not think keeping tabs on cooldowns/CCtimers etc is a useful nor interesting skill in an MMO.
    There was also no need to "look for flanking opportunities" or check what "weaknesses" my squad has, because these were things we had pinned down and knew and didn't have to communicate. We had mastered these aspects, and focused on the ones we hadn't or couldn't master. Movement is only so complicated if you use the standard mmo formula of ranged, conal and melee range. If you'd for example make the "back" cone that generally dictates the usefulness of backstabs smaller that would increase the need to be good at being at the back of your opponent, thus adding skill. If you'd remove backstabs from a game you'd reduce the movementskill needed as a melee dps. The same goes for our weaknesses, we knew our classes and our opponents classes outside and in. We knew what we had to worry about, what things we needed to communicate and which not. We could avoid most "bad" situations because we knew of them beforehand, I for example spent months perfecting the skill of NEVER letting a melee class touch me (unless they stealth-popped but still) by movement and kiting, so again, that was a skill I had mastered. Mastering CCs in a game where CCtimers or CCbars are readily displayed is much easier than mastering CC in a game without them. It's dumbing down, but if you will, it's a good kind of dumbing down. What I fear is that they won't increase the skill required outside of it, and as such end up with a very easily mastered game.
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    Alaisy Veteran BOON

    there is no collsion detection btw
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    Divinitas Community Member

    Like pete i better understand what you mean now and to a extent i do agree with you.

    That said you could look at it from the perspective that if everybody has those bars, everybody can view them, then the skill itself is going to be timing your CC to land the second the DM bar runs out, if two opposing groups have one CC in each, and everybody has DM, then its going to take some skill from the CC'r to be able to land the CC before the other one does and on the right people as well.

    I don't think it 'takes' away anything from the game, as everybody has it, if it was an addon that only some people had installed then that would make it easier as the people without it would be cannon fodder.
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    Saul Community Member

    I do get it Maskerad, but I don't think you get me.

    PvP, is like a dance, a Ballet if you will, your Kiting, your knowledge of your class and others, your positioning, before and during an encounter, your reactions and those of your team mates. The skill you mastered was fire and movement, which is all part of the dance, the fluid motion of PvP if you will. Like Fire and movement in FPS games, bringing arms to bear whilst ducking, diving, pulling cover, etc, it's all part of the dance. The interaction of well trained and practiced team mates, the almost pshychic like reactions of team mates to respond to situations as they unfold, is all part of the fluid motion of active PvP. The more fluid, the better orchestrated the dance, the more fun it is and the more skill it requires.

    Learning skills and theory crafting only allows you to hone those skills and be better at the dance, as your faster, or more accurate due to the time spent in understanding your mechanics, your UI, your Keybindings, your team mates, etc. The skill is in how well you learn these skills, and execute them in the Dance.

    Anything that aides that fluidity, that allows for more accurate and responsive reactions, only adds to the tempo and skill requirements of PvP and it's participants.

    Allowing an all seeing CC Resolve BAR in the UI, imo aides that fluidity, and improves overall PvP.
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    Fozia Veteran BOON

    oh god give it a rest allready...
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    Fizzee Veteran BOON

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    Saul Community Member

    Lol I have had a few beers in the Garden this afternoon, and it is a bit hot here atm, :) I may go for a lie down in a bit.
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    Allstar Just A "Member"

    Raining all day here :(
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    Aspira Admin Officer

    PvP is like dancing........ dancing....... DANCING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Saul, wtf..... dancing!!!!!!!!!

    The Hoff has only one response to this analogy.......


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    Fokkie Veteran BOON

    wtf u guys on about, pvp = smash face. nothing more to it m8s
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    Divinitas Community Member

    This is one of Saul's (anal)ogy's he does them now and again, when he's typing them they make perfect sense to him, unfortunately they quite often back fire and make him look like a tard :p
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    Saul Community Member

    IT's an analogy.. It's not Saturday Night Fever... Read a few times, you'll see what i'm getting at. But yeah 3 cans of Magners and a JD & Coke + Sunshine has Gay'd me out... I'm even feeling affection for Div, which is just fucking Wrong.. :)
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    Alaisy Veteran BOON

    OK now you even confuse me Saul, wtf
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    Saul Community Member

    Not a great example of what i am talking about, but i'm hoping you can see what I mean.

    Skip to about 2:40 and I may start to make more sense.

    The event of PvP'ng is people going backwards, forwards, etc, all using skills, and knowledge, and reactions, and all the things we have been talking about, against other players. Which I refer to as a PvP Dance.

    When it clicks, and everyone in your team is just bringing their A Game, and you are kicking ass, that fluidity, between you, of movement, cover, healing, everyone doing their job and doing it well, requires skill and that skill is not imo diminished, by the addition of a mechanic that allows you to be more tactical, more accurate and quicker to react to the situation in front of you, based on additional information. Imo it does not detract it adds, as it allows for tactical planning, making sure your Resolve is up, prior to rushing a group, or an objective, etc.
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    Allstar Just A "Member"

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    Aspira Admin Officer

    Nade spamming noobs are not helping your argument against these guys Saul, lol.
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    Saul Community Member

    It's not their skill, or the quality of the pvp in the video, it's the movements, they are typical of all mmo's, look whatever, I know what I'm trying to say.. I may not be articulating it very well, but mehh.
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    Maskerad Veteran BOON

    Movements in pvpvids are only useful in a context and if you can, y'know, grasp what's happening on screen.
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    Saul Community Member

    Ok I'm more sober than I was yesterday.

    Combat is a Dance of Sorts, when you look at Martial Arts, Capoeira, Military Tactical depoyments, etc. On the ground it may not look that way, but take yourself out of what is acctually happening and you can see the fluidity of the act of combat and that in some military terms is refered to as the "Dance of Death".

    This ethos can be applied to all forms of combat from Real life to virtual PvP on your PC Screen, what it refers to is the fluid actions of both the act of combat and the organisational movements of troops, squads, skills, etc. A lot of Martial arts are referred to as a form of dance, this is portraid by the attack and counter attack of moves, etc in a fluid style, the more fluid and skilled the more successful the competitor.

    The point i was trying to make in the context of the discussion with Maskerad is that the more fluid that combat, the more momentum you have to push forward and succeed. Now a lot of factors effect that fluidity, good organisation, good team work, good skills, and knowledge of your equipment, and those of your enemies, etc. In Games you also have to add Mechanics that developers have created to facilitate Combat/PvP.

    I believe that any mechanic that aides that fluidity aides overall Combat, a Skill as simple as a Resolve tracking CC meter, in my opinion aides in the increase of fluidity in PvP, which aides momentum for those skilled enough to take advantage of it. This is above and beyond the basic skills that players are given in the game, this is not just about the skill ceiling set by developers, it's about group and tactical combat within the PvP arena.

    Everyone is given the same set of skills based on Class and class choices, what makes the difference is not just how people use those skills and how proficient they are. I could be an awesome solo pvp player but would suck in a group because my team play sux, and my ability to react to what is happening around me, in the context of a team is poor, etc.

    In terms that probably make more sense to some people, FPS games and Action based MMO's lend more to fluid Combat and therefore fluid team work, due to the lack of complicated or rotational skill sets and routines. In those type of games your focus is fully on what is happening around you as opposed to what is happening on your UI, or other required skills sets that take away from the centre of your screen. I dont think all MMO's have to be FPS based or Action based, but I believe that mechanics that lean towards those types of mechanics, lend themselves to more fluid and exciting combat. Those playing Tera, or have played GW2, should know what i am talking about tbh, they free you up to focus more on teamplay and tactical skill based combat.

    Saul... (Lord of the Dance) :p

    P.S I Live in Brighton, but I am not Gay, this is not a gay philosophy on PvP.. :)

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