PvP Gear - again

Discussion in 'Game Discussion' started by Rev, Feb 13, 2012.

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    Rev Veteran BOON

    Originally Posted by burningcurse
    I read your statement about rebalancing pvp gear George and I couldn't help but feel upset.

    Here is another suggestion/ solution rather than nerfing end game pvp gear, just give the new 50s some BLUE pvp gear to buy!

    I'm valor rank 68. have done nothing but play your warzones for the past month and half.

    if you nerf end game PVP gear just to bring us down a few notches so that new level 50s wearin greens and blues can beat us then its just not right.

    it's like you are punishing those who really put in the time & like to play that aspect of the game(pvp) to appease new level 50s and casual pvpers.

    there will always be a gap between new 50s and old ones. As I'm sure you know, it's called Progression, naturally those who have gear will outmatch/outshine those with only leveling/questing loot.

    Fair concerns... but nobody said anything about nerfs for PvP gear just yet.

    There are many ways of achieving our intended goal, from stabilizing early gear acquisition through diminishing/removal of the random factor to the introduction of new gear over time... and a dozen other methods in-between.

    To spell it out: We currently have no intention to modify the stats on existing PvP gear downwards (which I assume you mean by 'nerf'). Nobody has talked about eliminating the gap between old level 50s and new level 50s either.

    -- Georg

    as tvar would say. uncasualized, sort of xD
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    Astarael Vertically Challenged

    good to hear but we'll see how long that lasts.
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    Doodle Bush Whacker!

    Good to hear. The casuals need to stop demanding to be equal to players who put more effort in to the game than they do.

    I work full time, live with my gf and have what some would call a "life" it's not hard to still be among the top 1% balancing all of this. It just takes dedication and planing of your time

    The average scrubs first comment to something like this is usually "oh you have no life, you out gear me there for you win" which is always hilarious as

    A. I would still beat you in the same gear due to my understanding of the game and dedication being far more superior than yours. Gear only allows me to dispose of your miserable excistens faster, so I can move on to a more challenging target.

    B. you are a scrub. And above probably applies to you and there for you are either bad or mad

    Damn I sound like the Prime example of a elitist douche but recently I have come to realise this to be true in all aspects of gaming. You can split gamers in to 6 different categories

    1. The good
    2. The above average
    3. The average who think they belong in the upper 2 categories (these guys tend to be a pain in the ass)
    4. The average
    5. The bad
    6. The scrubs

    Anyway.. Why did I even write this here :-P bored at work.
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    Katiechops Guild Master

    "we won't change the stats" nah just balance via the game mechanics, so the stats are not worth the same anymore, there invisable nerf everyone is happy, hardcore still have pretty gear with high numbers on it, gear is no longer a factor.

    I am sure no one would notice hmm then again the HC likely would notice thier reduction and the casuals would keep whinning as they still losing and see the number unchanges so an excuse to whine and cry.

    SW is very clearly a commercial operation looking to maximise its return and that is to keep as many casuals playing as long as they can withthe least amount of effort. Who cares if they lose the top 5% so long as they don't lose the bottom 80% that,s where the money is and it,s also the main reason for the demise of the mmo for the old school active mmo players.
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    adagio Moderator

    Crikey kc, even I wouldn't say they were money grabbing bastards. ;)
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    Rev Veteran BOON

    scrubs will always win, look at how they gutted the Ops..

    maybe thats why its so much fun still raping them tho
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    Astarael Vertically Challenged

    exact same thing aion did with dredgion. casuals were getting owned, so they added shields so skilled players couldn't own them repeatedly and the casuals could try and force a pve-fest.
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    Fizzee Veteran BOON

    Ahhh the old gear vs skill bullshit. Gear progression is why MMOs will never be about skill but how much time (and money) you sink into it.

    Gear progression makes sense in PvE as its about gearing up to beat the next boss.

    PvP makes no sense having such dramatic gear progression as it gives an unstable "economy" of the rich getting richer and poor getting poorer. Until rated WZs ofc, but then you need to make sure that progression doesn't affect open world PvP.

    PvP to be taken seriously should have cosmetic rewards, but that will never happen because scrubs with no skill but loads of time need the progression to rofl stomp less geared people and feel special.
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    Omnipresent Potato Farmer

    Its not an Esport Fizzee, you can expect this in LoL/HoN/SC2 etc... this is an MMO where you get rewarded for the effort you put in.

    Why not just eliminate the skill tree and the class system, remove the 3D world... add a black background and 2 white paddles.

    A lot of us could play and still win if there was no gear imbalance, but frankly I enjoy out gearing people. Not because I need too, but because I can.
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    Katiechops Guild Master

    Why me and Tvar play mmo's tbh...
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    adagio Moderator

    I'm still amazed pve and pvp still have to have the same rulesets. Why can't they split them so they work independently of each other. Wow pvp and pve were both being constantly ruined by changes to one ruleset that then impacted the other.

    Pvp should have its own rules. Gear stats should be set by the player to play to his style. He wants to be tanky he goes for stamina, he wants burst he goes full power. These points would be set in stone for a season and gear would be cosmetic. High end players would get better looking armour. This gear can then only be used in pvp areas. Surely this would lead to more balanced pvp?
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    Allstar Just A "Member"

    You mean, exactly like GW? :p
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    adagio Moderator

    Don't know about that, never played it.

    Plus I doubt any mmo pvp will become a esports of any great note for numerous reasons.
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    Allstar Just A "Member"

    Me either really, there are simply too many factors to balance in an environment like MMO pvp for it to be viable.
    Even Blizzard have shown how hard it is to balance SC2 so that everyone is happy (except Zerg, Z players are never happy).

    I think the biggest challenge in creating an e-sport in an MMO space is balancing out the skill cap rather than the rock/paper/scissors of class balance; Too high a skill cap and it becomes a game of knowledge perfection, too low and it becomes button mashing.

    Honestly I still think WoW pvp is probably the best example of this (although it could stand a little less CC), I know its fun to hate wow for being "casual shit" etc but its #1 for a very good reason.
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    Gurtholfin Veteran BOON

    Let me respond to this with a true analogy.

    I have a friend who plays HoN....everyday. He is a 1550 player or so with a ~0.9KD. To put that in context, for non Hon players, he's pretty average/low in ranking and dies a little too much. In short, he's not a good player.

    However, he has 4000 games played - pretty much four times what I've played. I'm a reasonable player (but not amazing by any means) and have better stats across the board than him and play in a higher bracket.

    In eSports like HoN, I'll beat him in general.
    If he played SWTOR, he would ROFLSTOMP me because he has the gear, has invested the time, might have had better RNG roles and has increased his stats in every way he can.

    My point:
    - With MMOs *never* confuse gear/time-spent with skill. Scrubs with no clue of gear mechanics stomp skilled/knowledgeable players every day because they are unemployed/more committed/have no partner/better time allocators/whatever. But it seldom has anything to do with skill. SWTOR is just a grind, as are most MMOs. Most people realise this, but some get very confused and start using the word 'Skill' which makes me laugh :)

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    Allstar Just A "Member"

    That isn't to say I think WoW is perfect or anything, because the gear-grind still exists to an extent, when ideally gear progression shouldn't matter in a serious pvp game and people shouldn't be able to win simply because their gear has bigger numbers.

    Sadly people still need to have short-term goals that they can aim for, but is it good game design that gear progression is the solution?
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    Nerien "Bad Boy"

    K/D ratio in a game like hon can be quite unfair.
    My dota 2 stats would probably be around 0.5 since I mainly play support.

    Also concerning importance of gear in PvP, I really hate when gear can give someone a advantage over a more skilled person.
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    adagio Moderator

    My mate who's a maths teacher for a level students. Laughs at anyone who's says a game cannot be balanced due to maths. He says its the devs own fault for over complicating equations by adding useless stats like haste, armour pen and hit etc.

    Also I always think of mmo esports like first watching American football. It looks great but f*ck knows what's going on. The commentary section on mmo esports needs to be exaggerated with large icons or colour beams. This then gives some idea what moves are being cast and played out.
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    Rev Veteran BOON

    agreed to some degree. MMOs cant ever use the word "skill" as lets say RTS or FPS games can. but there is still a skill difference amongst players. call it reaction time, call it being able to predict other players movement or whatever, but there is still a difference. dont forget there are still tons of players in mmos with similar gear fighting each other every day. and some of them win alot more than others. might be because of better teamwork or whatever, but then again thats having "more skill" as well. Some people will backpadel nomatter the gear or rank they grind themself to....

    being an old rts player myself, i just laughed when i learned that GW2 is going for the e-sports thing for example. only reason WoW had some sucess in it is because of the massive amount of players playing it, nothing more nothing less. i was having an interesting conversaion with Bal over TS regarding MMOs in competative play. i have seen good teams being eliminated from big tourneys in WoW because of luck in best of 3s or 5s, but i have never seen this happend in a RTS or FPS game.
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    Katiechops Guild Master

    I think people just forget the fact that MMO's are not esports and NEVER SHOULD BE!, if people want an esport in an "MMO context" then the characters used for PVP need to be totally seperate from the open world "MMO" characters with default gear set and default skills etc etc...

    What I loved most about Vanilla WoW was if you made the effort to make a guild, team up raid etc etc and got a nice drop you could go out and rape face with it it was great an reward for effort. If people wanted to balance go do the same if not die in a fire :p

    It was like Lineage 2, it took a player months of gathering mats, bartering with other players, watching the market place (not a action house I mean wandering aroun dthe towns checking all the player shops) to make thier weapons and gear and when u did you stepped up and owned those behind, it was awesome, it took effort, knowledge and even skill just different types of skills but its want made it an MMO and an adventure and a goal and it was great.

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