New build discusion

Discussion in 'Guild Wars 2' started by Duglas, Jan 24, 2013.

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    Duglas Veteran BOON

    I konw that ppl try to improve our tactic but triat build for support guardian is a bit strange.
    Why you waste 2 good triats to have single target burning. I understand that you don't have to use ground targeting on wall but you waste a lot of stability and protection time couse you don put 30 points on Virtues. Next thing is Inndominable Curage next stability high cd i know but it rly usefoul.
    About set i think that Invader set with cleric trinkets is good why couse with sigil of life in your wep on 25 stacs you make quite nice heals and you can survive a lot .
    I play on support Boon dur guardian over 2 mounths and from my experience i can say only one thing if you wana do proper build you need a lot of time to test it and i basicli don't agree with sugested build.

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    Tumbleweed Classic Guild Member

    Hi m8,
    The 15 traits in Radiance are really no more than a suggestion as we didn't find stronger synergies anywhere else to go with the build concept for the role, so really put those anywhere you like or where it suits your playstyle more. Personally I'd say the 5-point trait in Radiance is worth it because it basically grants you an aoe blind on a 24-second cooldown. Keep in mind that the build is designed not as a heal-support kind of guardian, but more towards support via boons/damage mitigation conditions. Of course you are free to add a healing twist to it; as long as you keep in mind the focus on boons and combos it still works well. The reason why we pulled away from healing guardian is because it's much more effective to use combo-healing and it allows guardians to add some punch to the raid.
    Specifically about the Indominable Courage trait: as far as I know, that is 3 second stability for yourself only on 72second cd, boon duration will take it up to 5 seconds. If I'm wrong and it grants stability to allies as well, then by all means use it. As you say, the extra 5% boon duration from traits won't hurt either and you have the 15 trait points from Radiance to play with.

    AFAIK, KC will be trying the build if he's not already so he may come back with some feedback about how it works. Either way, none of the builds posted there are final and un-revisable - I intend to revise that thing as viable tweaks for the designed role appear and as game meta evolves - that's why I asked for feedback across the class forums so we can get more input in a structured manner and see what tweaks can be made.

    I said the exact same thing about the Necro vampiric build when the idea first came up on our class forum, but I tried it and made some tweaks (major trait selection-wise) to match my personal taste and it proved to be exceptionally strong, so I stuck with it. So why not just give it a go, see what the differences are, try tweaks out, post results here - it only costs what..6 silver to change traits twice? You don't have to change the gear as well to see what the trait+skill build does differently.
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    Klecksi Veteran BOON

    Hey Duglas, thx for your input regarding this build. As Tumble already pointed out in his post, the build's main traits are the Honor trait line and the first 15 points in Virtues. The other trait points can be distributed by personal preference. We just picked some synergy around Virtue of Justice there (recharge on killing blows, retaliation, area might, area blind and longer burning duration).

    Also note, if you want to make suggestions to a build please change it right in the build editor, klick "get quick link" at the bottom and post that link here on the forums. That way it's a lot easier to follow your suggestions.

    So regarding your changes, the build might look like this:;ToAA1Cto8yojQHbXOvkdtgYwA

    Here you have the 30 points in virtues with some useful traits. I have no doubt it's gonna fit the raid's needs. Let me just add a few words to your suggestions and why they aren't in the original build.
    30 points in virtues just for the boon duration itself isn't enough. It's just 5% which is like 0.7% protection uptime from "hold the line". But as there are some nice virtues-related traits in the virtues trait line its fine as well. That way we just have to remove all radiance points and put them somewhere else.
    In general, I avoid the Indomitable Courage trait as is only up to 5 seconds stability on a 70 seconds cooldown and aegis + stability is kind of an overkill since aegis blocks the next attack. In small scale fight this might result in stability running out before you actually take another hit. For the guild raids I think it's a very nice idea. Just make sure you stick with the Renewed Focus elite so you can activate it a second time.

    Last point: gear. I would avoid healing power on a guardian. It might be a viable option for builds centered around Altrustic Healing (Honor grandmaster trait). But overall, the healing increase is not that high compared to the sacrifice of other useful stats. So I'd suggest to switch to Knight accessories for a bit higher toughness and precision instead of healing power. If you want to dig in deeper here, we can of course open a new thread regarding healing power gear on a guardian and do some research together.
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    Duglas Veteran BOON

    Hey about triats i change them so i don't have one triat built.
    But if we ae talking about heal you have point in zerg we have a lot of heal but every time when we under the gate everybody leave those guys on rams. And only 2-3 ppl stay to heal them. that the one of the points to have a bit more next thing i that you not always in zerg i play wvw most of time. Basicly we run in 4-5 ppl group and then every heal count.
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    Klecksi Veteran BOON

    Well healing is not that easy. Of course every heal counts but does that mean the whole 50 ppl guild raid is gonna run full healing power gear? Probably not. The question is if the increased amount of healing is worth the lost amount of damage. For a shout support guardian my answer is definitely no.

    Btw in small scale fighting this is even less the case. Your damage is more important to kill your enemies before they kill you, while less allies gonna profit from the heals.
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    Xtranerf Veteran BOON

    I tried the new build last night and I really enjoyed it, the Virtue of Justice spam was ridiculos ^^.
    I used Invader Armor | Invader Weapons | Berserker Back | Knight's Trinkets and ended up with roughly:
    18,5k HP | 2,8k Armor | 30% crit chance | 4% Crit dmg | 3045 Attack

    The crit dmg is really low so I'm gonna try to swap Amulet to Berserker and might even try to use Berserker hammer but it might be too squishy for my taste.

    When it comes to healing rams etc all we need to make sure is that when rams are taking dmg we should have water fields on rams and guardians using the hammer 2 ability and then just heal as we've always done with staff/shouts/resolve etc and that should be more then enough. And as you might have noticed the higher tier we go into the better our enemies are at building proper defenses that can't be out healed anyways.

    What I dislike the most is the 3rd hammer auto-attack smash that is uber slow and it's pretty hard to place a good Ring of Warding in fights, you pretty much have to dodge in to the middle of the enemy and drop it which exposes you to alot of dmg while being in front of our ball. So I pretty much only used Ring of Warding for blocking doors etc. We could experiment with using Judge's Intervention with Ring of Warding since it works the same way as Churning Earth and Teleport ie: start to cast Ring of Warding and then teleport to the enemy with Judge's Intervention. You would ofc be exposed to the same potential dmg but it has a surprise factor to it and the enemy won't see you dodge to them, you will just appear in the middle of them and they can't get away from you unless they have stability up and that's when our ball roll over them :evil:
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    Klecksi Veteran BOON

    Just one addition - that Tumble already pointed out in his post. Try to get crit on accessories. Especially hammer as a 2hand weapon means a high loss of regular stats compared to the amount of crit. This means you'd end up with overall less stats compared to crit on accessories.

    Here's the conversion table of regular stats to crit per item. Try to fill the crit damage slots from the top until you're satisfied. In brackets is the amount of stats that you give up per 1% crit damage.
    1. Ascended Backpack (7)
    2. Ascended Ring (8.5)
    3. Earring (9.2)
    4. Necklace (10.1)
    5. Ring (10.5)
    6. Shoulders, Gloves, Boots (12)
    7. 1hand Weapons (12.8)
    8. 2hand Weapons (14.2)
    9. Chest (14.4)
    10. Head, Pants (16)
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    Tumbleweed Classic Guild Member

    Glad you enjoyed the build and I agree the 3rd hammer auto-attack is a bit hard to place right so I'd say don't bother so much with it's placement, fields will be all over the place in the kill-zone, assuming you start the fight with a staff and place the "runspeed" light field on the enemy's front-line. I think that having 5-6 guardians throw those fields all over the initial point of engagement will generate loads of retaliation from the get-go on it's own. Besides, you also have your necro buddies using their well of blood, with is a rather huge-radius light field that lasts for a whopping 10 seconds. I know I got heaps of combos off it last night and I know at least 1-2 more necros are using it consistently.
    The combo with Judge's Intervention is a really interesting idea, you can also try to use the hammer #2 right as the warriors jump in to get you on top of the enemy, then by the time the warrior cc chain runs out, they'll be in one of your rings :) Even though it doesn't seem like you catch a lot of players, afaik the ring only has 5 charges of holding people inside, so even trapping 2 guys in is about as effective as trapping 5 in. The 2 guys will get blocked 2 times each and a 3rd for one of them, while 5 guys will all get blocked once. I agree it's more effective to pop it in front of the melee guys though and I'm curious to see what you come up with after testing the combo with Judge's Intervention. Having said that, I'd still think that not all of you should be running this combo, as it would leave us without the utility of a Wall of Reflection or, worse, a shout.

    I'd also like to know if you guys considered the GS alternative to hammer for 1-2 guardians as the pull it provides is really good utility for the setup, while the other skills provide very useful finishers that can generate condition removal, while also including a light field on your skillbar. Maybe Annoying and Firoz would prefer this since they have the shiny blades? Or if you don't want to agree on 1-2 "permanent" gs wielders maybe have a short chat between you as we form the raid to see who wants to run gs? Just an idea..
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    Firoz Veteran BOON

    My new support build: link
    pow vit tough Greatsword
    pow vit tough Staff with swiftness on kill (16sec swiftness each kill)

    full power toughness vitality (2 superior monk + 2 superior water + 2 major sanctuary = 50% boon duration)

    I use the same accessory as my offensive build. The difference is too small to make a 2nd set tbh.
    power toughness vitality (with my offensive set jewels (not gonna change them), little bit precision and crit damage)

    healing: Signet of resolve (cond removal ftw since i almost never use the healing skill)
    Utilities: Stand your ground, hold the line & retreat
    Elite: Renewed focus


    Valor: 30 points IV, V, XI
    Honor: 10 points II
    Virtues: 30 points II, IX, X

    This build gives me 80% boon duration, healing on applying boons
    2 condition removals each 10 seconds
    15 second stability
    This makes me the perfect first line shouter and cc'er (with my gs)
    I survive even better than Chops :giggle:
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    Klecksi Veteran BOON

    Hey Firoz, for a support build I'd suggest you to try out one of the build posted above:
    Those builds make use of the Pure of Voice (allies affected by shouts convert a condition to a boon) instead of Altrustic Healing (self heal on boon appliance). Those builds are more supportive and I guess you wont need that much self heal as your allies would die a lot earlier anyways.

    Also the swiftness signet sounds a bit overkill if you use staff and retreat already which grant perma swiftness.
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    Tumbleweed Classic Guild Member

    omg selfish Firoz wants to survive more than everybody tz :)
    on a slightly more serious note, I don't think the build is necessarily bad but you will probably overheal yourself quite a lot and we all know what overheal means :D
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    Firoz Veteran BOON

    The more I heal myself, the more i can buff others.
    I don't overheal actually since i don't wear healing gear.

    I'll try the "build adjusted for Duglas" next week.
    But i believe more in protecting the guardians first.

    And because you use shouts before you run into a zerg you actually do not convert conditions.
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    Tumbleweed Classic Guild Member

    Following the constructive feedback and ideas discussed here, we did some more testing and math and made the following changes to the suggested build <updated link>:

    Radiance line: Signet Mastery (II) swapped out for Blind Exposure (VI), due to a better synergy with the 5-point minor trait and the Virtue of Justice spam-ability that is generated by the build. The new trait choice will apply 3 stacks of vulnerability per blind applied (bearing in mind the minor trait leads to 5 targets being blinded each time Virtue of Justice is activated). The secondary source of blind will be blasting the dark fields provided by the Necros.

    Virtues line: Supreme Justice (VIII) swapped out for Indomitable Courage (X), as the benefit of the VIII trait in the Supreme Justice context is reduced to the extra burn duration which is only 1 second, while the 4-5 seconds of aoe stability (considering boon duration) applied on Virtue of Courage is a much stronger benefit in WvW.

    We decided to stick with the focus on Virtue of Justice spam-ability as it adds up to a very big number of burning damage (~5 burns applied by allies per activation).
    The same info is posted in the thread with all the builds.
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    Duglas Veteran BOON

    I sugest to change Virtues II for III it's it's much better to put wall there where you want and dont get hit.
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    Tumbleweed Classic Guild Member

    Yeah that makes sense for the guardians that will be using the wall, but seeing that we suggest there shouldn't be more than 1-2 using that skill, the majority will not have it in theory, so I'd say it's better to stick with the retaliation duration trait there in the linked build, as retaliation tends to come in short duration and 25% is quite a big boost to it. I'll add a few words in the text about the wall to point at this trait, I trust everyone will read the text there when they look at the builds.
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    Klecksi Veteran BOON

    Well I'm not surprised that warriors are scared about condition removal if the guardians are believing more in protecting themselves ^^

    Regarding the shout usage, it's often a good idea to use the shouts a bit more situational. There's no point in using them when there isn't even someone fighting back. All those boons are just too strong to waste them before they are actually needed. Also note that some of the boons from the Pure of Voice trait are really good and hard to get otherwise. Just a few examples: stability for the full duration of fear, 9 seconds vigor for bleeding and chilled (hard to get otherwise), aegis for the burning and 3 seconds protection for vulnerability. The final boon duration depends on % boon duration from gear, traits and food. This works for everyone affected by the shout including the caster (you). So this trait is not only supporting allies but also keeps you clean of conditions and grant some boons.

    Btw, even if all the shouts are used before the fight starts, the interesting fights gonna last longer than the shout cooldowns.
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    Firoz Veteran BOON

    I don't agree with situational shouting.
    ex: If you look at hold the line, it gives stability, when you need stability you are already knocked back.
    The retaliation is an controversy, but since i place a lot of light fields during the fight there is no loss actually.

    I do use the virtues depending on the sitution. My virtue of resolve gives regeneration for instance.
    With my elite i can use my virtues 2 times which should be enough in a zerg vs zerg fight.
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    Klecksi Veteran BOON

    Well you need stability right before you are knocked back/stunned/dazed. A good indicator for this are enemies charging in on you, damage or even conditions on you. Also area control fields like guardian walls and bubbles or ele static fields are situations that request this particular skill.

    The other skills are easier. They just mitigate damage and therefore they can be used once you take the first damage. This makes sure that the boons are in effect when you really take damage.
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    Fizzee Veteran BOON

    I pop my stability just before engaging as that's when most stuns come in. After the initial hit and you get out the other side, most enemies are dead or in a muddle so usually don't cc as well as in the first hit. Also, don't know if this is the case with your shout, but my earth shield makes me instantly recover from a knockdown if i pop it.
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    Duglas Veteran BOON

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