Discussion in 'Game Discussion' started by Saul, Aug 23, 2011.
i will play all classes in this game,, oh wait
I'm not really sure what you mean by that, but your idea of following the RIFT model of balancing individual trees and just hoping that it works is frankly laughable.
The video Maskerad posted is a prime example of precisely why this doesn't work. The Riftblade and Void knight trees individualy were faily balanced in terms of relative power of other DPS specs (although not exactly) but combined they were a monstrosity, allowing a player to annihilate people in PvP by spamming one button.
Balance is difficult to achieve without homogenising things too much, but that doesn't mean that developers don't have a responsibility to try and certainly to ensure that certain specific combinations are not excessively powerful in relation to other builds.
This is a valid statement and there is certainly an argument that it is happening, the current talent trees in WoW for example are an homogenous mess, it is impossible to make a "bad" build.
I completely stand by my statements made previously on the subject:
It bears repeating that I will always want classes to feel unique but I still expect specs/builds/trees to be balanced and for no classes to feel obsolete in the face of others, however this can't be achieved without some sort of buff/nerf cycle. I would prefer it if things were made "right" in the first place, but sadly it is the impossible dream, nor is it realistic to simply base it on numbers and metrics.
I could go on forever about this stuff, but I'm tired
What I was getting at, is that since we have not seen it, how do you know this is not how you balance PvP. You use one lol build in Rift as proof this type of balance does not work, what about the specs in Rift that do work?? One Devlopers failure to get it right on a single class in an average MMO is not really proof that Multi Class balance does not work.
GW2 are using multi class balance with arms and equipment, instead of trees and cookie cutter mirrored classes. I for one saw something that looked good, felt good, and no doubt will be some of the best PvP we have seen in ages. Secret World is also moving away from balanced builds, to a more skill based system with a huge choice of options and player builds, Archeage, as we have discussed.
Fighter: "I can kill a guy in one turn."
Cleric: "I can kill a guy in half a turn."
Wizard: "I can kill a guy before my turn."
Bard: "I can get three idiots to kill guys for me."
"Rock is overpowered, but Paper is perfect."
We have seen it.
It doesn't work.
We gave you evidence of why it doesn't work.
What more do you want?
You need to look up "traits", then come back.
Also, I don't think we actually disagree: Multi TREE balance is perfectly viable, as long as you aim for the COMBINED trees (the CLASS) to be balanced, not the trees themselves. For example, the VK/RB vid illustrates how having two trees interract in a flawed way (broken CLASS) breaks balance, even if the trees are balanced themselves (balanced TREES).
Caps for emphasis on definitions.
I could go round in circles with you all night Allstar, if I could be arsed. You think that 1 broken lol class out of how many in a mediocre game like Rift proves what, other than Trion fucked up on Riftblade/Voidknight. 1 class combination out of how many??
I agree, which is what I was saying in the first place about Archeage, you balance the 10 classes not the combinations. so we have gone round in circles for what exactly??
Oh and as you stated yourself VK was broken, which made VK/RB even more out of balance than intended.
It's a seriously hard task to balance ANY number of classes and have them all feel unique. The job of the devs is to make the imbalance as slight as possible. Min/Maxers will always find a combination of classes/prfessions/stats/tress which outshines the rest... but if handled right, the developers can make this difference so slight that skill will alter the outcome regardless.
I think it's very brave to have such a huge pool of skills, but if they can pull it off then it benefits the players.
Perfectly balanced solo trees, even in other combinations, absolutely retarded together.
It was by no means the only combination, Necromancer/Warlock/Chloromancer (or Archmage/Warlock/Chloro) sticks out in my mind but RIFT was a heap of shit thankfully forgotten
My point though, is that you can't simply disregard balance because it's "too hard", and nor is there going to be an easy fix.
The best way to balance anything in a multi-class environment is to make small, incremental changes until it "works" without causing tectonic shifts in the metagame (unless the metagame itself is broken, which is a whole different story) as opposed to the stupid method of Buff everything and nerf it back down later.
Anyway, this is going nowhere fast, except off-topic so lets just forget it
How... do you manage to take my post, and COMPLETELY reverse it? There are over 100 CLASSES in ArcheAge, and they need to be balanced, NOT THE TREES.
They've changed the website abit, games looking more and more interesting. So the list you posted is all the possible class/trees available when combined?
Yip all the possible 3 class combinations form the 10 available.
I admire their efforts in thinking of names for each one lmao.
Just perfect. Awesome quote.
I remember you saying HOMM III was balanced, or that it wasn't needed because there were so many things to worry about (not sure about the exact words). Maybe the same rule applies to ArchAge .
Imagine a Patch of 100 different classes, I think people will just end up playing whatever works for them tbh.
not me, i would be playing the class who wins.
me and every other person with a pvp mindset would do the same. GL balancing this
I still don't see why every mmo has a skill tree if its such a nightmare to balance.
Agreed, it would add some flavor to an MMO to not include a skill-tree. Not just MMO's though, there's also plenty of single player games that have a skill-tree. And it adds nothing, much prefer a D&D or self-made system.
Just do something like this and to hell with the micro balance.
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